*Scroll down for updates, including one from William Jacobson.
Law professor William Jacobson has fact-checked Rep. Joe Wilson's statement, "You lie!":
So using the two measures, the non-existent Obama bill and the draft Senate HELP Committee bill which was not a full Senate proposal, Obama was correct.Let's give Prof. Jacobson credit for giving the president the benefit of the doubt, especially considering Obama's often strained relationship with truth. But whether Obama uttered his misrepresentations with or without full knowledge and consent of the will, he's quite willing to accuse others of lying. He did it on Monday in his speech to the AFL-CIO and he did it again last night, targeting a certain ex-governor and VP candidate. From Ace of Spades HQ:
But if the standard is the full House Bill, HR3200, then it appears that Obama was incorrect. There is nothing in HR3200 that excludes illegal aliens from the various coverage provisions (with a few limited exceptions). The Congressional Research Service agrees with this assessment (full report embedded below). For example, with regard to health care exchanges, the CRS found:H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens—whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently—participating in the Exchange.Since the Obama administration wanted a full House vote passing HR3200 prior to the August recess, Obama was okay with a bill that included illegal aliens.
Was Obama a "liar" meaning that he had knowledge of the falsehood of the statement he made at the time he made it? Hard to say. Maybe Obama was playing word games like Bill Clinton did as to the definition of "is." Or maybe Obama simply was mistaken as was George Bush on WMDs in Iraq.
UPDATE: One of the talking points I have seen in numerous comments posted around the blogosphere is that Obama was correct because Section 246 of the House Bill excludes illegals from receiving Individual Affordability Credits. That is true, and one of the few exceptions under the Bill. But it is the exception which proves the rule. As the CRS found, illegal aliens can participate in most of the critical aspects of the government health system including the health care exchanges. [What follows is an update] Added: It also would be interesting to see how long the exclusion of illegal aliens from getting the credits lasted, since as the CRS notes, illegal aliens are subject to the health care mandate; one can anticipate the argument that if the House Bill requires illegals to have qualified health insurance, some accomodation needs to be made for those who cannot afford it.
So Obama calls Palin a liar (not by name but everyone knows who he's talking about) but we are supposed to get our panties in a bunch because Wilson yelled it out? At least Wilson had the guts to do it to in the same room.Matthew Archbold believes that Joe Wilson was right. He lists a few of the lies and Doug Ross lists a few more. But be warned: they'll call us out if we misrepresent what's in the plan. (I think that's what Wilson was doing.*)
Allahpundit takes umbrage at the audacity of lecturing on civility:
The culprit was South Carolina rep Joe Wilson, who felt moved to act when The One told what was, in fact, a lie. Although certainly not his biggest of the night: Where this jackass gets off lecturing Americans on civility after his cretinous cronies spent a month demagoging the hell out of every protester in sight is beyond me. You’re Mr. Clean, aren’t you, champ? And bottom-feeders like Harry Reid are your hatchet men. Nice work if you can get it.Nice Deb applauds Rep. Wilson:
I’m told that his magic number of “47 million” uninsured Americans magically dropped to 30 million uninsured in this speech, presumably to omit the illegal immigrants who were inflating the tally.
If this is the beginning of UK Parliament style proceedings, with lots of yelling and cat calls, so be it. That can be Barry’s legacy. The man who promised to end divisiveness will go down as the man who’s shameless and audacious lies inspired an uprising not only amongst an alarmed citizenry, but also amongst Washington pols forced to listen to them.Dan Riehl finds that he is Joe Wilson:
I will say it was refreshing to see someone with a passion for truth unthinkingly inject some into a hall all too lacking in it last night thanks to Obama. In that sense, as cliche and leftist as it might sound, I very much am Joe Wilson in this case. And I am delighted to have seen at least one person there who actually spoke for me.Rep. Wilson quickly apologized. Demagogue Patrick Leahy is shocked, shocked, that protocol has been breached in this manner. Long-winded lies, corruption, and character assassination are the norm in the Capitol but this two-word truth crosses the line. I don't know just what went through Rep. Wilson's mind, but I can understand how, in a conflict between respecting the office of the POTUS, a worthy value, and standing up for truth and our liberty, the latter might take precedence.
*Update: Honest, I didn't steal that line from Michelle Malkin, who is not buying the outrage on the left. Read her take here.
*Follow-up on Joe Wilson here.
*Follow-up from Prof. Jacobson:
Given that Section 246 so clearly is narrow and so clearly does not prove that Obama was correct in his speech, I wondered how it was that, within hours of Obama's speech, blog comment sections and blog posts were being plastered by people quoting Section 246 as "proof" that Obama was right and Wilson was wrong. Even my own blog post received comments from people quoting Section 246.Comments welcome.
Realistically, how many people had dug into the 1018 pages of the House Bill to find Section 246?
The answer is that at 9:51 p.m. on the night of Obama's speech Media Matters, the Democratic media operation, issued an Action Alert claiming that Section 246 was "Proof That "You Lie!" Was A Lie" and that "in reality, Rep. Wilson is the liar."
In addition to Media Matters' other distribution methods, that Action Alert was sent out by Media Matters via Twitter and re-tweeted over 200 times.
Linked at Michelle Malkin (buzzworthy)
Most recent posts here.


It would have been interesting to watch conservative reaction had former ambassador Jo Wilson shouted "You Lie" when Pres. Bush told the nation that "Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
ReplyDeleteI'm sure conservatives would have backed the ambassador for standing up for opposing viewpoints and the truth.
As for Representative Joe Wilson - he's not only a cad - he's just completely and demonstrably wrong.
You have to hand it to Rep. Wilson for perfectly encapsulating ignorance and partisanship in front of a national audience. Credit to those in the GOP who booed him - at least they realize the risk of being identified as the party of ill-informed louts.
"the party of ill-informed louts" are the same party which booed and disrupted President Bush's 2005 State of the Union address, and now hypocritically demean Rep. Joe Wilson for observing the literal truth AFTER Obama accused the American People in opposition to his own lies all a bunch of liars he was "callig out." Instead of criticizing Joe Wilson, who already has apologized for an impetuous uncivility, it is time for We the People to DEMAND an apology from Obama for his preplanned and calculated uncivil act of falsely accusing the American people and their faithful representatives of being liars.
ReplyDeleteCalling oneself a fact-checker doesn't confer reliability. From Ramesh Ponnuru
ReplyDeleteon the Corner:
"PolitiFact claims that Joe Wilson was wrong, and Obama is telling the truth about illegal immigrants. But PolitiFact ignores the central argument made by Wilson's camp: that the House bill does not require that the legal status of people who receive "affordability credits" be verified. (Democrats in committee voted down an amendment to require verification.) Here's the entirety of PolitiFact's discussion of this issue, in a fairly long piece about Wilson vs. Obama: "The bill specifically says that people in the United States illegally are not eligible for tax credits, on page 132, section 242." So what? The law "says" that people aren't supposed to be here illegally in the first place, after all.
PolitiFact also reports, "Right now, most states have laws on the books that require hospitals to treat severely ill people who arrive at the hospital, regardless of immigration status, and we didn't see anything that would change those laws, either." I'm not sure what they're talking about, but federal law has included that provision for more than two decades."
Prof. Jacobson's argument stands as far as I can tell.
But -- and this is a problem with this as well as the cap & trade bill -- much of the language of these bills is unclear, hasn't been thought through, and is likely to have unintended consequences. That's why they can't be rushed through. This administration is averse to reading its own legislation or vetting its own appointees. It's in an unseemly hurry to get things done and listen to complaints later.
Wayne - if you can point to any part of the House or Senate bills that states illegal immigrants will receive insurance when they become law, please do so.
ReplyDeletePundette-
ReplyDeleteYour dismissal of PolitiFact's point doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
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"The bill specifically says that people in the United States illegally are not eligible for tax credits, on page 132, section 242." So what? The law "says" that people aren't supposed to be here illegally in the first place, after all.
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The bill specifically says illegal immigrants cannot receive tax credits. It's difficult to see how your "So what?" invalidates the language of the bill.
You're suggesting that the presence of illegal immigrants (in violation of existing law) renders other laws moot. After all, they can't enforce law A, so they must not be able to enforce law B.
Even if we were to accept that massive leap of logic - the enforcement of the two laws is very different.
Border security/employment law enforcement is massively more complicated than issuing or not issuing a tax credit.
At least with tax credits, the issuing agency is in total control of whether or not to send the money.
Over and above that is the main point: the bill says the tax credits don't go to illegal immigrants.
Your "So what?" is irrelevant unless you can find contrary language elsewhere in the bill.
I can't show quoted text very well in comments, so it wasn't clear as it could be that the 'So what' came from Ramesh.
ReplyDeleteI think part of the issue is that the House voted down two (I think) amendments that would provide for enforcement. If you go back to William Jacobson's post you can read the CRS report. Jacobson acknowledges that illegals can't receive the tax credits, but there's more to it than that:
"One of the talking points I have seen in numerous comments posted around the blogosphere is that Obama was correct because Section 246 of the House Bill excludes illegals from receiving Individual Affordability Credits. That is true, and one of the few exceptions under the Bill. But it is the exception which proves the rule. As the CRS found, illegal aliens can participate in most of the critical aspects of the government health system including the health care exchanges."
Quote from CRS: "Under H.R. 3200, a 'Health Insurance Exchange' would begin operation in 2013 and would offer private plans alongside a public option…H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens—whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently—participating in the Exchange."
That critique is quite different from Jo Wilson's implication that illegals will "be insured" as a result of the bill.
ReplyDeleteJo Wilson was screaming "You lie" in response to Pres. Obama saying his reform will not insure illegals - and it won't. They will not be given anything.
The bill is leaving in place the current law. Namely, if you are willing to provide an SSN, you can buy insurance with your own money.
(The insurance companies take the same stance as the IRS - if you want to pay us, we'll take your money.)
A rule for checking an applicant's citzenship before purchasing insurance is not just a requirement for illegals - it would be a requirement for EVERYONE. Under Pres. Obama's reform framework, millions more people would have to buy insurance and would then have to prove they are citizens. Now everyone has to bring a birth certificate to their insurance agent? Whatever proof you require could be falsified (it's not like false documents are a new thing for illegals) and legitimate US citizens may not be able to produce what you require. Remember those nuns in Indiana who couldn't vote because they didn't have ID?
For tax credits and direct benefits, a citizenship check is a worthwhile regulation. You keep US money going to US citizens. But adding more paperwork to the already annoying process of buying insurance is just adding to everyone's burden - and it won't stop illegals from buying insurance.
Quoted from and linked to at:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thecampofthesaints.com/2009.09.06_arch.html#1252593923065
"murph said...Wayne - if you can point to any part of the House or Senate bills that states illegal immigrants will receive insurance when they become law, please do so."
ReplyDeleteYou are engaging in the same kind of strawman arguments, misdirection, and deceptions as Obama. First, Joe Wilson and the rest of us clearly witnessed Obama falsely accusing our elected representatives of being responsible for "bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost...a lie, plain and simple."
Joe Wilson was hardly alone in being disgusted by Obama's false accusations of lies by his opponents and by Obama's abandonment of proper decorum in making such false statements and accusations of lies as a guest before a joint session of Congress. It is exceedingly hypocritical for Obama and his supporters to complain about a breach of parliamentary decorum prompted to begin with by Obama's own greater and deliberately calculated breach of the same parliamentary decorum immediately preceding Joe Wilson's impetuous reaction to Obama's own misconduct.
Secondly, while Joe Wilson's reaction and our reactions were not prompted only by Obama's statements regarding illegal immigrants, Obama's statements were a lie. He knew or was obligated to know that his party has systematically blocked all legislation and repealed previous legislation which provided for enforcement of existing and proposed laws with respect to illegal immigrants. Obama and his supporters know full well that any legislation which does not include EFFECTIVE provisions for enforcement of a law have the effect of permitting illegal immigrants and their supporters in the Democratic Party to violate those laws with impunity. Consequently, your asking for evidence of Obamacare providing illegal immigrants with such healthcare is a disingenuous question that proves the very point of how Obama and his Democrat supporters lie by deception.
Joe Wilson apologized for impetuously reacting to Obama's provocative lies about himself, fellow legislators, and the American People opposed to Obama's diminishment of our fellow citizen's freedoms and liberties. His apology stands in starkly favorable contrast to the reprehensible failure of all the Democrats, including Obama, to likewise sincerely apologize for their far more monumental breach of decorum when they massively booed and disrupted President Bush's State of the Union addresses before Congress. We, American citizens, call out to Obama as he called it to apologize to our elected representatives and ourselves for falsely accusing us of acting "to kill reform at any cost...a lie, plain and simple."
Closing the Loophole kinda does the best job of proving Joe Wilson right, and Obama as lying."
ReplyDelete"There were two opportunities for House Democrats to make clear that illegal immigrants wouldn't be covered by putting in requirements to show citizenships," he said. "Both of those amendments were, in fact, rejected."
In the Senate, Democrats in the so called "Gang of Six," a group of bipartisan senators on the Senate Finance Committee which is the last panel yet to release its bill, began moving quickly to close the loophole that Wilson helped bring greater attention to."
And, by law, anyone who makes it into a hospital is going to get treatment, so yes, no matter what the law says, illegals are going to get treatment.
If the law was worded correctly, they would get treatment, spend some jail time and get kicked out. Then in a just world, the well controlled border would make sure they stay out.
Oh, and the "Proof" that illegals would not get coverage is akin to WalMart saying "We won't sell anything to Drug Dealers" and then never checking to see if anyone buying anything is a drug dealer.
ReplyDeleteWayne - I gather that your lack of bill citations, you were unable to find language in any of the current bills that gives insurance coverage to illegal immigrants.
ReplyDeleteI'm unclear what part of my post to you is a straw man. I asked you to cite language from the proposed legislation that backed up your assertion that illegal immigrants will be given insurance coverage with their passage.
Since the President's remarks are essentially a starting point for what will now follow, I would extend this to include the President's speech as well.
You have not done so.
Still waiting...
murph, what part of "began moving quickly to close the loophole that Wilson helped bring greater attention to." means that what Joe said was untrue?
ReplyDeleteThey word things like your link, then put further language in blocking enforcement of those words.
Like blocking wording to enforce your claims. ""There were two opportunities for House Democrats to make clear that illegal immigrants wouldn't be covered by putting in requirements to show citizenships," he said. "Both of those amendments were, in fact, rejected.""
Besides, Obama wants Amnesty passed next, that will fix any wording problems for the time being.
JP -
ReplyDeleteI want to make sure we're not passing each other by with our arguments.
The president's statement was:
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There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false — the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.
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To which Rep. Wilson screamed, "You lie!"
I submit - for the reasons I've stated above - Rep. Wilson is wrong.
Illegal immigrants will not be given health insurance as a result of these bills. I'm talking about insurance coverage provided by the government or subsidized by a tax credit.
You appear to be talking about illegals purchasing insurance coverage - something they are allowed to do now.
I'll say that again: The proposed bills leave current law in place with regard to illegals buying insurance.
As a citizen, I'm certainly against our government giving handouts to illegals - but I have no problem with US companies selling insurance to illegals - and neither should you.
You seem to be talking about treatment - which is the very thing that should convince you of this:
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And, by law, anyone who makes it into a hospital is going to get treatment, so yes, no matter what the law says, illegals are going to get treatment.
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Yes they will get treatment because of existing law. The illegal immigrant who does not have health insurance is going to avoid or delay treatment until they have to go to the ER - where the government will pick up the tab.
I don't want to pay my government to pick up the tab, and I gather you don't either. Unlike you, however I'm happy to see the illegal immigrant pay for health insurance. Because when they have insurance, their medical bills are sent to their insurance company.
I'm mystified why conservatives would want to deny coverage to illegals so we can all end up paying the ER bills for illegals. That position makes no sense.
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If the law was worded correctly, they would get treatment, spend some jail time and get kicked out. Then in a just world, the well controlled border would make sure they stay out.
===========================
No, actually this would be twice as stupid as the current situation - since we would now have to pay their ER bill and then have to pay for their incarceration and deportation.
The fantasy where we will build a wall and stop illegals from entering the US ignores the scope of the problem. We have millions of illegals in country right now, and securing a border as large as ours is far more expensive than the right seems to appreciate.
If we want to stop the illegals from entering the country in waves, we have to stop their motivation for entering: employment. Both parties have had ample opportunity to go after employers who hire illegals, instead both have chosen to turn a blind eye and simply punish the people they hire.
But that is another subject entirely.
PG 50 Line 152 HealthCare will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
ReplyDeletePG 170 Line 1-3 Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes.
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ReplyDeletePG 50 Line 152 HealthCare will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
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If you're going to cite a bill, you should really check to make sure your citation backs up your position.
Page 50 Line 152 says no such thing. If you don't believe me you can read it for yourself:
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SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.
(a) In General- Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.
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What that's dealing with is discrimination (race, gender, creed). Lest you think it can be broadly interpreted to include illegal aliens, the first words of section (a) should set you straight: "Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act…"
Now, as I've said previously – illegal aliens will be allowed to buy insurance from the Insurance Exchange created by this bill, but this is not any kind of handout and is a direct result of regulation that changes the entire insurance market.
Illegal aliens are allowed to buy insurance now, and this bill (as introduced) does not change this.
The bill does provide for premium credits to subsidize the purchase of health insurance for people who cannot afford the premiums themselves.
These premium credits specifically exclude illegal aliens.
If you don't believe me – read what Congressional Research Reports says:
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To be eligible for the premium credits under H.R. 3200, individuals must be lawfully present in a state in the United States, excluding most nonimmigrants (i.e., those in the United States for a specific purpose and a specific period of time). The exceptions for nonimmigrants who could obtain premium credits under H.R. 3200 would be trafficking victims, crime victims, fiancées of U.S. citizens, and those who have had applications for legal permanent residence (LPR) status pending for three years. It is expected that almost all aliens in these excepted nonimmigrant categories will become LPRs (i.e., immigrants) and remain in the United States permanently. Furthermore, unauthorized aliens would be barred from receiving the premium credit.
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(BTW, that'd be the very report Rep. Wilson is claiming supports his viewpoint. If I was to be charitable, I'd say he's splitting hairs and referring to the portion referring to the exchange.)
As for your other citation:
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PG 170 Line 1-3 Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes.
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Once again, Page 170 does not say this at all.
What it does say is that a person who is a nonresident alien is not subject to the bill's 2.5% tax imposed on people who do not have health coverage. If the bill didn't exempt these people – we'd have tourists (who are nonresident aliens without US health insurance) would be subject to a tax penalty if they earned US income during their visit. Don't believe me? Read the bill.
If you'd rather save time, Politifact has a better summary.
See what happens when you don't read the bill?
Murph--
ReplyDeleteThe problem with your argument is that, as you pointed out, Obama's words were:
"There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false — the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."
He said nothing about the bill, so pointing out what the bill says or does not say has nothing to do with whether or not he is lying. If Obama had made the statement that the healthcare bill he was proposing "contained language that excluded illegal immigrants," I might agree with you that Wilson was wrong, although I would still argue that without the amendment requiring certification of citizenship, it would be like posting speed limit signs, but not bothering to use cops or radar to enforce them. Regardless, what Obama said was "the reforms I'm proposing" will not apply, NOT the wording of any particular piece of legislation. In a purely semantic sense, the "letter of the law" is meaningless when trying to refute Wilson. The question at hand is whether Obama was lying about saying that the reforms he's proposing would not apply to illegal immigrants. The equal protection clause of the Constitution will likely ensure that illegal immigrants WILL benefit from the healthcare reforms. Federal courts, including the Supreme Court (in Plyler v doe), have already set precedent for applying the EPC to illegals, just as they are covered under other amendments, like the fifth. If the federal government gives a benefit to one group, they must give it to all. Obama, as a Constitutional scholar, should know that. So, if he does know (as he should--he taught Constitutional law classes at U of Chicago!) that a clause in any bill that restricts healthcare benefits would be, on its face, unconstitutional, then isn't the statement that "the reforms wouldn't apply to illegals" a lie?
You people that are arguing over the; "The bill specifically says that people in the United States illegally are not eligible for tax credits, on page 132, section 242.", are all missing one very important point. First think about what a tax credit is! Now show me the reported number of illegal aliens that PAY TAXES! What do you need a tax credit for if you don't pay taxes? And how does that prevent them for getting care?
ReplyDelete